typealice

06 Aug, 2008

Crying It Out

Posted by: typealice In: Baby

Warning: Preachy, judgmental post below.

One of my favorite mommybloggers recently wrote about her six-month old son still waking in the middle of the night (from what I can tell, he’s only waking once- at 3am). She wants him to stop waking up so that she can get a good night’s sleep. She’s a working mom and also has a two year old, so her situation is much different than mine- I’m a stay at home mom who works from home doing odd things like sewing slings. The thought of dealing with a toddler and a baby at the same time literally makes me not want to have another one because of how tired I’d feel all the time. Seriously.

Anyway, so she asks for advice. And 50% of the advice she gets is to let her baby CIO (Cry It Out). I am so anti-CIO it scares me. I laid awake last night thinking of all of those poor babies who are left alone to cry while their parents put pillows over their ears or put them in a different room in their cribs and turn off the baby monitors so they don’t have to hear the wails.

Crying is the only verbal form of communication that babies have and they are being ignored.

One person even commented that she let her baby cry so long that the child ended up throwing up. The “concerned parent” she is, she asked her doctor’s advice and the doctor said that IT WAS OKAY!!!!!!!!!!!! What the hell kind of a medical system offers doctors with that kind of belief??

THROWING UP DUE TO EXCESSIVE CRYING IS NOT OKAY AND IS NOT NORMAL.

So, I wrote a quick reply and voiced my opinion that CIO is child abuse and that the person should seriously consider switching doctors and my comment was deleted. I was not very tactful nor political in my comment because I feel so strongly about CIO/Ferber methods that it’s hard for me to contain myself. It’s hard for me not to write line after line after line of curse words and insults towards parents who try to sleep train their infants.

Listen. Parenting is hard. Harder than you imagine it will be while your belly is growing or you’re even considering having a child. There’s one thing that you must understand: babies are not trying to inconvenience you. When they wake up in the middle of the night it’s probably because they’re lonely, wet or hungry. It’s not because they’re these evil little creatures with the goal of interuppting your REM sleep. They have basic needs that do not go away once the lights go off for the night, or when they reach 12lbs, like one mother in the same comment section wrote (on the advice of yet another doctor, go figure).

Sure, it can be frustrating to be woken up in the middle of the night- I’ve been there. Ash still doesn’t sleep a whole night through; he goes down at 7, wakes briefly once between 7-11, wakes for a nurse and pee on the potty at 11, and then another nurse at 3am, but he’s right beside me in bed and I just roll over and he latches on and five minutes later we’re both asleep again. And I’m proud to say that Ash has never, not ONCE, cried at night. Not when he was brand new, not at six months old, never, ever ever. We also do not allow him to cry during the day- there’s no need for it. If he starts to cry, I figure out what he’s attempting to communicate, fix it, and we go about our day. Why would I possibly let him cry? It goes against everything I am as a person and everything I am as an instinctual animal.

Letting babies CIO is BAD FOR THEM, physically and psychologically.

Research suggests that allowing a baby to “cry it out” can cause brain damage.

Some experts warn that allowing a baby to “cry it out” causes extreme distress to the baby. And such extreme distress in a newborn has been found to block the full development of certain areas of the brain and causes the brain to produce extra amounts of cortisol which can be harmful.

From here.

and

The pair examined childrearing practices here and in other cultures and say the widespread American practice of putting babies in separate beds — even separate rooms — and not responding quickly to their cries may lead to incidents of post-traumatic stress and panic disorders when these children reach adulthood.

The early stress resulting from separation causes changes in infant brains that makes future adults more susceptible to stress in their lives, say Commons and Miller.

“Parents should recognize that having their babies cry unnecessarily harms the baby permanently,” Commons said. “It changes the nervous system so they’re overly sensitive to future trauma.”

From here.

Please stop abandoning your children. Please attend to their basic needs. Please be patient with them and love them and stop ignoring them. CIO may “work” because the children give up on you. What are you teaching them? Love and nuture them, please stop treating them like inconveniences.

50 Responses to "Crying It Out"

1 | Ashley

August 6th, 2008 at 10:04 am

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I couldn’t have said it better.

2 | J.

August 6th, 2008 at 10:07 am

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Amen to that! I could never, ever do it myself and I shake my head that it’s so widely accepted as “proper” parenting. :( Then again, I co-sleep and that always gets wide eyed looks from the uneducated.

3 | ambera

August 6th, 2008 at 10:42 am

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I’m down with that.

4 | yuri

August 6th, 2008 at 11:33 am

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I think babies have plenty of ways of communicating other than crying, but when these fail, they cry, and eventually stop trying anything else. On the flipside, the more babies are understood, the less they’ll feel a need to cry out at all.
In my brief time with Ash, I found him to be extremely communicative and startlingly well-behaved; proof enough to me that you’re utterly on the right side of this debate!

5 | typealice

August 6th, 2008 at 11:42 am

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I agree with you fully, Yuri. I agree that crying tends to be a last resort. Picking up on Ash’s cues allow me to minimize the amount of crying… and Ash really only cries when he’s too tired or when he’s hurt. He doesn’t really have any other reason to cry.

6 | Danielle

August 6th, 2008 at 12:10 pm

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When a child cries, especially those at a young age, its a signal that they need something! I understand that children can be fussy and that they sometimes can grate on a parent’s nerves but to abandon a baby who won’t stop crying is just cruel.

7 | Jen

August 6th, 2008 at 12:23 pm

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I can see that there is a point in which babies need to learn to self-comfort - so the question is: at what point does the baby’s grousing (and self-comforting) change to the type of crying in which the caregiver should go to the baby? To me, that’s the more important thing. No parent can withstand the sound of their child crying - already at one month Kale has caused me to cry a number of times when Ross and I are fumbling to soothe him - and so I believe its so sad that parents will ignore their instincts in favour of “expert opinion” and just let them scream. But I also think there is some good in waiting to see if grousing can be self comforted before it turns into the screeching.

The thing is, Gillian, that its not up to you how other people parent their children. Yes, this particular mom asked for advice, so she kind of opened the door, but to call CIO “abuse” is pretty extreme and would have put my back up too - and I’m on the same side of the fence as you! :) It’s sort of like calling formula “satanic”. ;) Sometimes, parents have to make the choice to try certain things to solve problems that are incredibly individual, or to even discount possible solutions. I bet that Mom would try CIO for one night and realize how wrong it feels and that would be more effective than anything you could ever say.

We all have opinions. The older I get, the more I am learning that sometimes they are better left unsaid. Someone said to me at the start of my pregnancy (I think it may have been you, actually! ) that there is nothing like parenting to make people argue. I often keep my mouth shut nowadays (unless its a person I trust, such as yourself) to prevent arguments.

One last point: for every expert that you find that says that CIO (or anything for that matter) is bad for children, you can find an equal number of studies or anecdotal evidence that says its good for them. Statistics don’t mean poop.

8 | typealice

August 6th, 2008 at 2:02 pm

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I know that it’s not up to me how other people parent their children, but I am allowed to have an opinion on it, and I FIRMLY believe that CIO is abuse. I know that people get defensive at hearing that word, but it doesn’t really matter to me.

People have all kinds of opinions on cosleeping and extended breastfeeding and even something as great as ECing (which I’ve been told is “voodoo witchcraft”).

Babies under the age of say, a year, don’t know how to “self-sooth” and I think it’s our responsibility as parents to give our babies what they need as quickly as possible for the sake of our sanity and theirs.

But yeah, maybe I should have kept my mouth shut- but there was such a strong part of me saying “DON’T LET ALL THE CIOers WIN HER OVER AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH”

I won’t take part in her conversation anymore.

9 | Sundry

August 6th, 2008 at 2:14 pm

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I did ask for advice because I’m always open to hearing what works for other people. However, I am certainly capable of deciding what’s best for my own family, and no particular philosophy is going to “win me over”. There’s a huge difference between letting a child fuss for a while (as happens with every single naptime for the first 3 minutes in my household, both my kids greatly resist being put down during daylight hours no matter how exhausted they are — the toddler now reads books for a few minutes but when he was a baby he would howl angrily for a while too) and letting them cry until they vomit.

Young babies can in fact learn to put themselves to sleep, and self soothe. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. When you construct elaborate methods to keep them from learning this valuable skill, you’re really denying them a good opportunity to get more rest at night.

Of course, that’s just how I feel about it. I understand you view the whole spectrum of letting a child fuss on their own for a while as “abuse”, but I won’t let you say so on my blog. It’s a hurtful, unnecessary thing to say to other parents, who only want the best for their children.

10 | typealice

August 6th, 2008 at 2:30 pm

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My comments were not directed at you, Linda. They were directed at the complete (IMO) idiot parents who DO allow their children to cry for more than an hour until the child vomits. I find that kind of behaviour completely unacceptable.

You’re right, there is a difference between letting a child cry or whine for three minutes and letting them cry for over an hour.

My child DOES cry, of course, but never for long, partially because of the things that I do and partially because he is able to stop himself. For example, we take away the cardboard box he was playing with and is now trying to consume- it doesn’t make him happy because he wants to keep eating it, but we just look at him sternly and he’ll stop crying within a few seconds. Is that self-soothing? I guess it is. However, letting a baby cry for 20+ minutes until they stop is NOT “self-soothing”- it’s passing out from exhaustion and giving up on their parents.

11 | Sundry

August 6th, 2008 at 2:45 pm

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I think the term “cry it out” can actually be pretty misleading, because it implies there always has to be actual DESPAIR involved, and miserable, unhappy crying babies. I know for my kids there is a huge difference between 1) fussing, 2) yelling, 3) angry complaining, and 4) actual crying as brought on by hunger/need to be held/sickness/etc. Letting a baby work through 1-3 for a while, in my mind, is not a big deal, and while I wouldn’t let it go on forever (mostly because hi, I don’t want to LISTEN to it forever), I really don’t feel like it causes any harm. If it helps Dylan learn how to send himself back to sleep without a bottle getting popped in his mouth, I’m all for it.

For the time being, though, I’m fairly convinced he’s waking up out of hunger, so I’m getting up when I hear him fuss (it’s always fussing: “Eh! Ehhhh. AHHH!”, never crying). But I won’t do this forever, not just because I want my own sleep, but because I want him to learn to sleep, too.

I don’t know all the details behind the cry it out method, but I seem to recall it involves stages: letting your kid fuss for a bit, going in and patting/soothing but not feeding, and so on. So a blanket statement like “CIO is child abuse” is just … harsh, you know? What you’re really saying is you object to letting a child cry miserably for prolonged periods of time, until they potentially make themselves sick and/or pass out from exhaustion. Big difference in how you present your opinion.

12 | typealice

August 6th, 2008 at 2:58 pm

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Do you know a baby who cries for long periods of time who aren’t in dispair? I have never met one.

I guess I just don’t understand why people wouldn’t solve the problem immediately instead of letting the child get worked up. If rolls were reversed, wouldn’t you like your issues solved immediately?

ie) It’s JB’s turn to do the dishes. You wait for him to do it without you having to ask. Nothing happens. You ask him nicely. He doesn’t do it. You are getting annoyed but keep it to yourself. You ask him without a “please” and a little more firmness to your voice. Nothing happens, the dishes are still there, dirty. You’re losing your temper, so you yell, “CAN YOU DO THE FUCKING DISHES PLEASE?” And he’s just sitting there watching tv and doesn’t even hear you. Now you’re even more upset because the dishes aren’t done AND you’re being ignored and you don’t know why. So you scream and yell and cry and don’t stop for a long time, and oh! You’re still being ignored. Does it feel good? No. You’re getting tired and your throat is getting sore from the yelling and crying so you have to stop and then guess what happens? You do the dishes yourself because JB is still ignoring you.

Who’s won? JB! He didn’t have to do the dishes? But think about how your feelings are hurt and you now distrust him because you aren’t sure if you’ll ever be able to trust that he’s listening to you or will be there for you. You can’t figure out what you did wrong to be ignored because any OTHER time you ask him to do the dishes he does it without incident.

Like I said, babies don’t know it’s a pain in the ass to get out of bed. They only know that they’re hungry/lonely/wet and you’re the one that makes things all better. That’s your job. It may suck, but that’s what you signed up for.

I do believe that CIO is abuse, I don’t think it’s healthy, I think it goes our animalistic instincts, and I think that there are far more better ways to deal with night time waking periods than to let the kids cry. I understand that crying until they puke is (hopefully) uncommon- but there were a few people in your comments section that justified their behaviour by saying they reached an “appropriate” weight to CIO (12lbs?!?!?!?!?!?) and I just will not stand for it. Not on your blog, not on mine.

13 | typealice

August 6th, 2008 at 3:05 pm

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PS. I just wanted to confirm that I never thought you were letting Dylan CIO by laying in bed for a few minutes listening to him fuss. What my main argument was for were all the commenters saying they use the CIO method. I just wanted to be a voice saying that I do not believe in it- I know you know there are other options out there, I just couldn’t stand to sit there and not say anything when the majority of people use that method.

14 | Sundry

August 6th, 2008 at 3:28 pm

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But see, I disagree that a baby who fusses in the middle of the night always needs intervention. If I train him that every time he fusses, I will put a bottle in his mouth, then he will come to expect that. If he’s fussing because he hasn’t yet learned to go back to sleep on his own, and letting him fuss for a while allows him the space to learn that skill, that’s positive for both of us.

You keep mentioning that parents need to realize what they signed up for, and to that I could say that you need to realize that parenthood also includes making decisions for your kids, and that they aren’t always going to be happy about them. It sounds like you haven’t hit the joyous toddler years yet, but let me tell you, they involve MANY MANY moments of not allowing your kid to do whatever they want to do, regardless of whether or not you’re supposed to make things all better. I think this does apply towards infanthood, on a smaller scale: you need to introduce solids, whether or not your baby is happy about it at first. You need to change their diapers, even when they’re thrashing around and wanting to go play. And for some families, they need to teach their children how to sleep. Not everyone wants to cosleep and nurse their year-old babies at 3 AM.

I’m sorry I keep coming back to ramble, but I think it’s a good conversation. I think you and I agree in some areas, and depart in others. Your comments are always welcome on my blog, as long as you don’t use your position to personally attack other parents.

15 | Chris

August 6th, 2008 at 6:46 pm

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My kids are kids… so I am so far removed from this debate that I forgot about it. I’m sad it’s still a debate. I’m sad people STILL put cereal in bottles, STILL ok letting babies CIO, and STILL think babies’ needs stop at night. I’m sad people blindly follow experts and this book or that book, but not their instincts. Sad that people think their kids are going to wake at 3 forever if they don’t CIO. Feeding two month old cereal? Ack! Oh yeah, and that not CIO = spoiled. No, not crying = 1) being blessed with a non-colic-y child… lol, and 2) reading their cues. Don’t be jealous, be observant.

16 | Ashley

August 6th, 2008 at 7:13 pm

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I think CIO is abuse also, Gillian. I would have made the same statement, because I’m rabid about it too.

What CIO consists of is crying. Not fussing. CRY. IT. OUT. Pretty self explanatory to me. Crying until they pass out from exhaustion and from what I’ve read, if the child is wet or covered in vomit, you’re to clean them off but not comfort them. Not pick them up, not give in, just give your infant the crap-O cold shoulder to “teach them” to sleep. Yeah, way to stick it to your 12 pounder and show them who’s boss.

There’s no weight that makes that behavior OK. There’s no age that makes that kind of treatment OK. We’re knee deep in toddler time (dare I say, the terrible twos) and things are different. But it’s not relevant to CIO with infants. I can use SOME reason with Bob and when I explain things, I know he hears me and I am sure to use language I know he can understand. An infant doesn’t understand your language, only your presence and your comfort…. Which makes all the diff. This also isn’t about “I want to pee on the cat and you won’t let me”. This is about “I’m in pain/uncomfortable/hungry/need help falling asleep”. The difference is NEEDS not WANTS.

17 | beck

August 6th, 2008 at 7:14 pm

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I had an interesting conversation with someone quite recently who looked at me with horror when I told them that I co-sleep and that Jaxson still wakes twice a night… I was actually asked if there was something wrong with him and quickly informed that if her baby was like that she would put them in the farthest room away from hers in the house! This woman doesn’t have any children (thank God) but I don’t look forward to the day when I hear she is expecting.

I fear that these extreme kind of people, no matter how strong your words are, are probably never going to change…Just like you or I would never let our children cry unnecessarily :( Be careful though to explain your meaning of abuse a lttle more clearly, although I think it DOES need to be said, particularly in cases where we are talking about children vomiting and or passing out. That just makes me overwhelmingly sad. :(

Lastly, my little boy is one of the most content, loving, calm and joyeous little bundles you could ever meet (or at least I think so because we are told that by almost everyone who meets him) so I guess I must be doing something right? Ooh I know, maybe it’s the fact that he is loved and nurtured and confident in us, his parents? We are essentially our babies communication tools for the world around them, and if that is broken it must be a very sad and lonely world indeed.

18 | Maggie

August 6th, 2008 at 7:16 pm

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Wow…what a great post! Oliver is almost two and still wakes up at night sometimes. Even though I’m exhausted and hugely pregnant, which makes it hard to get out of bed, I still go check on him. Most of the time he just wants a hug or his blankie rearranged and he goes right back to sleep. In other words - like you said - he needs something. Even if it’s just reassurance that we’re still there.

PS. Congratulations on your marriage, it sounds like everyone had a great time and the pictures are beautiful!!

19 | Lana

August 6th, 2008 at 8:19 pm

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I do agree with the crying until they vomit as being not right, but at the same time I see CIO as not related to child abuse whatsoever. We parent in much the same way (breastfed the first until 2.5 years, cosleeping, babywearing, yaddayaddayadda) and I have a child that woke up at night until she was 2 years old (and an 8 month old that is up many times - good times).

However, I temper my view on CIO with my experiences as a counsellor for children and teenagers, the majority of which are abused and neglected. To compare CIO to child abuse really does an injustice to children who are actually abused. Isolated CIO in an otherwise loving, wonderful home cannot be compared to situation in which a child is beaten, used sexually, poorly nourished, etc.

20 | Erica

August 7th, 2008 at 6:49 am

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Gillian, I agree with everything you’ve said.

BUT, I would be very very careful with the tone with which you give advice, and here is why:

Obviously I’m not with child, but it is nonetheless quite apparant to me that people become EXTRAORDINARILY defensive when their parenting is questioned. Thus, a phenomenon that I’ve seen happen is that a mom will say something silly (say, “I’m supplementing with formula until my milk comes in”), she’ll be attacked by exasperated moms who are (justifiably) sick of seeing people spew the same bullshit, and instead of receiving the advice well, they just become very hostile towards the AP crowd in general (”I don’t care what the stupid boob nazis want me to do, they’re just a bunch of fanatics, I know what’s best for my child!”).

I see nothing wrong with educating oneself about different methods (i.e. cosleeping vs CIO) and then making an informed decision. In fact, I didn’t think I had a problem with CIO until I actually read up on it and found out how it works! And that’s from reading pro-CIO stuff. But when you tell parents that they are CONSIDERING CHILD ABUSE, they are going to become very defensive. The likelihood of them agreeing with a preachy, hostile tone, I think, might be less than the chances of experiencing a backlash.

One thing that makes me so, so sad is when I’ve seen parents who don’t know about AP, follow their instincts to cosleep/pick up bb when bb cries/etc, and then become so APOLOGETIC about it! I think that the best thing to do is to make sure that they understand that they absolutely do not HAVE to CIO, that they should listen to their maternal instincts, and do all the research for themselves and ultimately make the decision that they feel most comfortable with. The type of parent who takes a “baby training” approach because she wants her beauty rest, you are not going to reach. The ones who feel that they *should* CIO because of what a friend/relative/doctor/website tells them…those are the ones you can stop.

21 | typealice

August 7th, 2008 at 8:01 am

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I refuse to apologize for calling CIO “abuse” because I strongly believe that it is. It may make people defensive, it may sound too “harsh” for some people, but it’s something I strongly believe and I will not pretend otherwise.

I do not expect to change people’s minds, especially those who already practice CIO methods because they’re more stubborn than I’ll EVER be. I fully expect to lose ANY argument with someone who can sit there for an hour or more and listen to their child scream and cry for their attention. We’re hard wired to not be able to easily listen to our young cry (we are still animals, after all), so anyone that can do that, they’re stronger than I am.

Babies cannot be spoiled. Their wants are their basic needs. They’re time consuming, patience-testing creatures, but they DO become more independant on their own, in time, and you won’t always have to wake up at 3am. Last night I was up at 1am, 3 until 4am, and then up for another hour at 5am. Whatever! Maybe tonight will be better. I’m not going to worry about it, even though it sucked hard and even though I’m tired today. There is no way that I was going to ignore Ash, who was suffering from an upset stomach. If he was in a different room in a crib, and it was up to some of these other parents, he probably would have been left there to cry, his diaper soiled in diarrhea. SORRY, KID, IT’S 3AM! GO BACK TO SLEEP. WE’LL DEAL WITH IT AT A MORE APPROPRIATE HOUR. GOD! YOU’RE SO ANNOYING!

Right. Model parents, you are.

22 | Erica

August 7th, 2008 at 8:24 am

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I certainly don’t think you should *apologize* for referring to CIO as abuse, I just question the efficacy in terms of “winning someone over”. If you’re not expecting to change anyone’s mind, I don’t see anything wrong with you holding or expressing that opinion, I just think it can be counterproductive.

As you’ve said yourself, parenting is HARD, but you’re willing to deal with doing things that are difficult in order to do what’s best for your child. I think that the thing to keep in mind is, there are a lot of people out there who find it excruciating to hear their child cry it out, but nonetheless do it because they think that they HAVE to, or are doing the right thing. Of course, there is the crowd who uses CIO to avoid the inconvenience of comforting their child, clearly that is inexcusable, but I don’t believe that is everyone. And I think that it is VITAL that women are made aware that they do not have to feel bullied into CIO by any doctor, any book, or any other parent.

Not to say that is your responsibility, per se, it just depends if your desire is to ultimately prevent CIO or if you just feel so strongly about this issue that you want your opinion to be heard.

I also encourage people to read up on the Ferber method, because so much of the time I see that people defend CIO because they don’t really understand what the method entails.

23 | Lesley

August 7th, 2008 at 8:37 pm

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I guess you can dish it out Gillian but you can’t take it.

24 | typealice

August 8th, 2008 at 4:33 am

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Blatently insulting me on my own blog, and calling me lame? Uh, yeah, that comment will be deleted. I fixed one of the things you brought up- I was wrong, it wasn’t 99% of the comments talking about CIO. I did a tally and it was about 50%. The other advice (about 30%) was telling her to put cereal in the bottle - and that has been proven to not actually make a difference.

You were a shit disturber on her blog in the comments section, why would I possibly let you do it on my own blog. Say something intelligent, and you will be published.

25 | k

August 8th, 2008 at 8:03 pm

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I believe CIO is abuse too. period.
I do not think taking a luke warm stance to it or nicely trying to educate others is in order. Trying to impose your will onto a child is nothing more then selfish and self serving. You can try to say a rested mommy is a better mommy until your blue in the face but it doesn’t make letting your child CIO any less offensive. It is hard hearing a baby cry, instinctually as mothers we are hard wired to find it difficult, that’s natures way of telling us to do something. Babies survival depends on the fact that they are irresistible. CIO is not about letting you baby fuss for a few moments, or whine for a minute it’s allowing a young baby’s needs to go unmet. Being held and comforted is just as important as being fed.
My daughter doesn’t cry with the exception of being over tired or hurt as well, her night wakings never escalate to crying because we co sleep. She self soothes well for her age (4 months) because mom is right beside her giving her the chance to feel comfortable without needing more then my presence.
There are many parenting practices that I feel are down right wrong and CIO is one of them, I do not think that politely and gently guiding people is enough. Taking a hard stance is necessary, these practices need to be confronted and stopped.
Babies deserve respect as well as love and nurture and CIO does none of those.

26 | typealice

August 9th, 2008 at 1:56 am

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Lana: Calling CIO does NOT do “Injustice to children who are actually abused.” That is one of the craziest statements I’ve ever heard of. CIO IS NEGLECT and therefore IS ABUSE.

I call my step father an animal abuser because he often would leave our family puppy outside crying for hours, trying to teach him uh-not to cry! If anyone from animal services came along and saw that poor, defenseless puppy being neglected like that, the dog would have been taken away from us.

If people treated their children like that- leaving them to cry, not feeding them, only patting them on the backs or whatever- in the DAYTIME, everyone would be in an UPROAR. How is it different when the sun goes down?

These children are starving for *something,* whether it’s affection or food or comfort. And they’re telling their parents in the only way they know how that their BASIC needs are not being met.

That is ABUSE. No ifs, ands or buts.

27 | Jill

August 9th, 2008 at 7:41 am

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I totally agree with this! I have never let Ivy CIO and would never do so.
She is like Ash and she never cried at all during the night because we co-slept and nursed. She sleeps in her own bed now across the hall (had to abandon the co-sleeping because she is such a restless sleeper and daddy and I had NO room), but if she does wake up at night I put her in our bed.

I’m also proud that Ivy does not cry. There is no need for it if mama is paying attention and knows what baby needs!

28 | Annie mess

August 10th, 2008 at 6:15 am

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I dont agree with CIO, but I refuse to raise a kid who is a brat. I will not answer her every whine immidiately and sometimes she stops on her own after 2 mins.
At what point is it wrong to let them cry? At what point is it just coddling?
I know that an hour is unacceptable (I have no idea who could listen to crying for that long anyway) but how long is it? 25 seconds? It sounds like that kid would grow up soft. Just like when they fall over and look to you for your reaction, if you “Oh poor baby!” kissing them all over and freaking out, THEY will freak out.
We are the teachers. I am in no way saying we should train our children to sleep through the night, but when do you know the difference between “Im bored” and “Im lonely” cry.
There are times when Luna cries and I pick her up, she still cries, I feed her, still cries, I change her (even tho the diaper is dry), still cries. What else am I supposed to do?
All babies are different. They all develop differently, they all think differently and they all act differently. So why wouldnt some babies have occational times where they truely cry for no reason.
The point is, yes, its kind of a blanket statement and it seems like you want to start a fight on purpose.
Maybe a statement like “Sleep training your child is abuse”. That would seem more true to me any way.
annie

29 | typealice

August 10th, 2008 at 6:30 am

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So, you believe that letting your child cry will make them “harder”? More resilient to things when they don’t go their way? I actually disagree. I believe that giving them the assurance that I’m there for them will give them more self-confidence and therefore will not need to look upon me for approval or reassurance when something doesn’t go their way. They know they’re okay before anything negative will happen.

I believe parents letting their children cry pokes holes in their trust, therefore not giving them a good, strong base.

Children will cry- it’s going to happen, whether they’re a week old or a year old. I do not believe in letting them cry to try to teach them something. Maybe the rule should be, “no one ever cries alone.” Instead of leaving the child alone to try to “self-soothe,” hold them, reassure them, tell them it’s okay to feel sad/mad/frustrated and do everything you can to calm them down, but do not abandon them. It’s not fair to them.

And I resent you saying that it sounds like I’m trying to start a fight. Ludicrous. As if I have nothing better to do than to get in fights online. I’m just voicing a strong opinion that I have- one that needs to be told a little more often, IMO, because there seems to be so much support for the unethical CIO method.

30 | Annie mess

August 10th, 2008 at 8:01 am

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It just seems like every time someone gently says something maybe letting your child cry for a few moments or something you immediately attack them and repeat the mantra “Crying it out is child abuse” when they weren’t even talking about crying it out.
Thats why I said you seem like your trying to start a fight.

And also, you take stuff to the extreme. I never said it would make them “harder” I said that I don’t rush to coddle her for EVERY fall. I am constantly there for her. Right by her side and holding her 90% of the day. We co-sleep, breast feed, no stroller, etc. We are attach parenting, but I do not think that telling other parents what they are doing is abuse will reach anyone. When you attach someone’s parenting you might as well be talking to a wall. No one wants to hear that. I was just saying, maybe word it a bit more nicely or in a manner people will understand and maybe you wont have to fight so hard.
annie

31 | typealice

August 10th, 2008 at 9:14 am

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I was simply trying to understand what you meant- you said that, ” It sounds like that kid would grow up soft” if you went to them immediately when they started to cry. I am curious to know what your reasoning is to not go to your child right away- that’s all. It was a question to you- not an assumption.

I think you’re talking about crying during the day, and I’m really focusing on crying it out at night. There’s an enormous difference between crying and crying it out, and any parent will know what they’re doing when they’re doing it.

It’s not like I’m at Ash’s every call. He does whine and complain when I do things like close the dishwasher or fridge when he wants to play in them. But I distract him and it’s over and done with, but he’s certainly not happy about it right away. But I’m never just going to stand there and not console him if he does full-out cry. I’m never going to put him in a different room and let him bawl, day or night.

As I’ve said before, parents who practice CIO methods are far more stubborn than I’ll ever be, and my post and comments aren’t trying to change people’s minds. I DO believe that CIO is abuse, in the form of neglect. I’m not going to sugarcoat it so parents can feel good about their choices. It is what it is. I think these people need a slap in the face.

32 | claire

August 11th, 2008 at 11:50 am

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I know this conversation is basically over but I must ask: I let my kid fuss for 3 nights a long time ago (at 6 months - he’s almost a year) and he’s never done it again, sleeps great. Would you still consider that the total of 40 minutes he cried during those three days to be abuse? He’s a wonderful kid and very well adjusted, for his age. I am just wondering what you think.

33 | typealice

August 11th, 2008 at 12:45 pm

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I don’t know. Do you think I’d think it was abuse?

34 | choice

August 11th, 2008 at 10:07 pm

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wow. in reading this entire thread, and the thread on the other blog pertaining to this.. i gotta ask, are some of you just arguing for the sake of attacking gillian’s opinion? i don’t understand why everybody’s defenses are up here. if you truly feel guilty that you’ve left your child to cry for ridiculous amounts of time in hopes they will just give up and sleep, then i could see why you’d be on the defense. if you have nothing to feel guilty, or ashamed about, don’t take it personally. it’s an opinion you can’t sway. don’t take it personally.

it only seems obvious that anybody with feelings of guilt would feel offended by gillian’s opinion on CIO. i haven’t seen her personally attack anybody.

nobody’s a perfect parent.

35 | typealice

August 12th, 2008 at 2:50 am

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I do wonder why people get so defensive. Is it because they secretly know they’re doing something wrong?

36 | Caitlin

August 12th, 2008 at 7:02 am

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Annie mess Says:

“It just seems like every time someone gently says something maybe letting your child cry for a few moments or something you immediately attack them and repeat the mantra “Crying it out is child abuse” when they weren’t even talking about crying it out.”

Isn’t this entire thread about CIO? Isn’t that the discussion? Full on crying during the night? Isn’t that what the debate is about??? Gillian is defending her position on CIO (DON’T DO IT, IT’S CHILD ABUSE) not on whining and whimpering (although she’s addressed both types of crying). It seems incredibly redundant to me to tell her to stop attacking people who clearly don’t get her point and are getting huffy.

I don’t get to have an opinion as I don’t have a baby, but I do know a thing or two about communication with people who have problems in that department. Ignoring a person of any age who is clearly in some form of distress, be it physical or emotional, seems abusive to me too.

37 | claire

August 12th, 2008 at 9:17 am

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I’m not being defensive; I honestly wanted to know if you thought it was abuse. I don’t. Because I see no apparent outcome indicating it would be. Sometimes, babies cry. I don’t want you to think I am attacking, for I am not. I promise.

38 | Joan

August 12th, 2008 at 9:44 am

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I agree with Gillian 100% on this one. CIO is abuse. You are the parent, the one your baby looks to for safety, love, comfort and all their needs, if you continually do not supply their needs and turn your back on a crying baby, to “toughen them up” or teach them to self sooth, you are destroying that bond of trust. It is your job as a parent to be there when needed, even if it is just for a hug and a snuggle to comfort.

My little girl Anika is turning 5 and we co-slept until she was 3 when she asked for her own big girl bed. I never once allowed her to CIO, even when I was busy doing some silly household chore as she napped, she always took and continues to take priority as your child always should. If that means I got less done, or I was a bit tired the next day, so be it, she is my child, it is my responsibility as her parent to be there when needed.

It is sad that some parents view there child as something to be trained to deal with there own needs when it is an inconvenient time for the parent to be bothered and I knwo it is also true that it is something that will not change in the minds of most parents that believe in CIO.
After listening to the heartbreaking cries of their baby go on and on until they quiet from exhaustion and frustration to sit there with a triumphant smile and believe there child has “learned” to self-sooth when in reality, all that poor baby has learned is mommy cannot be trusted all the time, she will not always come when you need her whether it be for a change, food, a snuggle or god forbid because you are in pain. It is a sad and heartbreaking “lesson” to teach any child. Something I am proud to say, my child has never learned and I will never allow her to.

39 | Erica

August 12th, 2008 at 2:06 pm

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Claire — not that you asked me, but IMHO, whether or not you agree with CIO, I think it’s silly to quantify abuse by how much time you spend doing it. If you beat your kid with a tire iron for just a couple seconds, yeah, it’s still abuse.

40 | typealice

August 13th, 2008 at 6:41 am

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Joan: Well said!

And Erica: Good point. I guess my answer to Claire is: Did you feel guilty about letting him cry? If you did, I guess that’s your answer. If you weren’t doing anything wrong, why would you feel guilty?

Claire: my post about defensiveness wasn’t directed at you at all.

41 | becky

August 13th, 2008 at 2:42 pm

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i agree wholeheartedly with you about this concept of cio (i had never heard a name for it). i don’t have kids but i babysat for one of my close friends recently and was told that i couldn’t go into the baby’s room if she cried after her bedtime. it was the most horrible things i’ve ever listened to and it wasn’t even my child. the mother laughed about it and said “well, i knew she’d test you out.” for the record i went in and cuddled till she fell asleep. she’s very proud that her kids slept through the night at like four months. and she was absolutely terrified when her milk came in- she never even tried to breastfeed. it makes me so sad.
thanks for letting people know that this is not ok.
they also used to think babies couldn’t feel pain.

42 | choice

August 13th, 2008 at 6:49 pm

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neither was mine. i wasn’t directly it at any one person.. i just see a lot of people who are seemingly taken aback by an alarm raised on an issue where maybe they shouldn’t be.

and if that alarm didn’t need to go off, better safe than sorry in ANY case.

i’m not a parent either, though i am a pet-owner and an aunt to many children, just observing.

43 | Sprite

August 19th, 2008 at 1:10 pm

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I don’t agree with CIO for CIO’s sake, but what else can you do if the child’s been fed, changed, burped, and you’ve paced around the room fussing over baby for what seems like hours?

Then it practically seems like common sense.

44 | typealice

August 19th, 2008 at 1:30 pm

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Are you serious??
uh, no. You wait it out. Continue soothing, continue doing everything else that you can- it won’t last forever. Keep repeating that to yourself over and over. It will not last forever. It will stop.

45 | typealice

August 19th, 2008 at 1:35 pm

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You know what I’d do? I’d strap them in a sling (or stroller, whatever) and take a walk. A change of scenery is often what they need. Babies get bored! Ash can get grumpy during the day and all I need to do is go for a walk with him and point out birds and cars and flowers and whatever. That’s what’s great about the sling- they’re up in your world instead of being far away from everything you see and hear down in the stroller.

46 | elc

August 22nd, 2008 at 7:17 am

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Well I’m almost glad that I got here so late, I was very fired up about this when you first left your comment at Sundry, but after a couple of weeks and reading these comments, I have come to see this issue in a whole new light. We simply have a fundamental disagreement about the goals (and methods) of parenting. While I’m confident that we both want our children to be happy and healthy, I also want my child to become independant and self-reliant, and as a parent it is my primary job to give him the tools he needs to do so. I DON’T want to “solve all his problems immediately” AT ALL, I want him to learn to do if for himself.

There is a big difference between wants and needs. Children will cry for both. When I put my just fed, cleaned, cuddled, read-to, perfectly delighted baby into his crib to go to sleep, he cries because he WANTS to stay up with me (day or night), but as his parent I know better that he NEEDS to sleep. I may pat his back a few times for reassurance, but I leave the room with him crying if he continues. He doesn’t need ME, he needs to learn to settle himself to sleep. It is totally fundamental, and even though it does pain me to hear him cry, I fight the self-indulgent urge to run and pick him up so that I don’t rob him of the ability to conquer sleep on his own. There’s nothing abusive about it. It has nothing to do with convience. It is in my not-very-humble opinion, the best possible way for me to raise my child. Maybe it is tough-love, but it is a deliberate choice I’ve made because I love him so much.

I know a lot of women who became Mommy’s because they need to be needed. They love to play the martyr. They love to tell the tales of how they strapped their baby to their body day and night, and breastfeed until their nipples bled, and allowed their children to completely overtake their body/bed/marriage/life. I also know a lot of Mother’s who still change their 4-year-olds diapers, cut their 7-year-olds chicken fingers, and do their 14-year-olds laundry because their children “need” them to. So please “continue soothing, continue doing everything else that you can”, but don’t be so sure it won’t last forever.

47 | typealice

August 22nd, 2008 at 11:03 am

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I believe that the way that I parent will allow the children to be more independant (Ash is EXTREMELY independant) because he has someone that he can trust will be there when he needs me. I am NOT interested in doing everything for my 14 year old, my ten year old, even my five year old. What I am interested in is being there for my BABY to give him a good, solid foundation. When left to cry, to “self sooth” or whatever you want to call it, cracks form in their foundation, in my opinion, and I don’t want that to happen.

Toddlers differ from babies- from infants- and I think babies need to be nurtured gently, never be left alone to cry because mommy thinks it’ll make them tougher. Babies wants ARE their needs, they don’t know anything different. Toddlers follow a much different needs vs wants system, and cry when they can’t do silly things like pee on the cat.

48 | Girl Fights « Buy Some Soup

September 3rd, 2008 at 7:56 am

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[...] ABUSE. You can’t read her first comment as it was removed, but she followed it up with her own post on the whole CIO issue, and, well I couldn’t help putting my 2 cents in. We obviously have [...]

49 | typealice » Blog Archive » Money Where My Mouth Is

October 25th, 2008 at 7:08 am

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[...] the form of neglect. Just in case you’re new to this blog, I’ve discussed it at length here and here, and kind of [...]

50 | Liz

October 27th, 2008 at 8:05 pm

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I’m curious why you have Dooce still listed on your blogroll, if you find yourself appalled by blogger’s parenting methods? She’s been quite clear that she used the Ferber method on Leta.

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About

I'm Gillian, a Nova Scotian woman with a son named Ash (born 09/07) and a wife to Clive. I am what they call an Attachment Parent; I breastfeed, wear my baby as much as possible, cosleep, cloth diaper and practice elimination communication. I have very strong parenting views. We are raising Ash as an organic vegetarian. I care about the environment and do what I can to reduce my carbon footprint and set a good example for others, especially my child.

I'm proudly drug free, but can't say that I have always been. My early 20s were comprised mostly of travelling- I've lived and worked everywhere from West Africa to the Caribbean. I currently run AP Mamas, a site dedicated to attachment parenting and G Slings, my sustainable sling company.