typealice

29 Oct, 2008

A Difference of Opinion

Posted by: typealice In: Parenting

I think my favorite comments over the past couple of days were about how Clive and I had Ash out of wedlock. Do people still seriously care about that kind of thing? I had no idea. Then again, I’ve never been to church, will never be to church, am not baptized or christened or whatever you call it and am completely god-free. Ash will also not be christened (though he’ll be able to make his own decision regarding religion as he grows up). Clive was brought up Catholic but hasn’t been to church in ten years and is also god-free. Clive and I have been together for almost four years, we got engaged eleven months and two days after we met for the first time and I thought we’d go unmarried for many years because, frankly, I don’t care that much about marriage- it doesn’t hold as much significance to me as it does to some people. Ash was a planned pregnancy, despite what some people have tried to spread rumors about, and Clive and I have never, ever said an “oops” or “uh oh” or “what did we do, can we make it through this, I don’t love you anymore, let’s break up, it’s not working” about Ash or our relationship EVER. We’re as strong as we ever have been. I appreciate how many hours he has to work, he appreciates me and my hard work spending my days and nights with Ash and owning two businesses. We both think the other person is incredible and we’re looking forward to going on our honeymoon in TWO DAYS. Whoo hoo!

But seriously? Having a child out of wedlock is the funniest thing that people said. It didn’t even occur to me while I was pregnant or giving birth or raising my son for the past 14 months. I’m so far removed from any kind of religion that it didn’t even cross my mind. I think the concept of a “god” is so arbitrary and illogical that it really surprises me when I see church parking lots full on Sunday mornings. I went by one this weekend when people were leaving church and I swear I only saw about five people under the age of 50. That’s saying something, isn’t it?

This is an excellent choice, isn’t it? Bringing up religion after basically calling a very popular blogger a child abuser. When will I learn my lesson?

***

So I can’t say that all the comments didn’t teach me something. Here’s what I’ve realized:

Attachment parenting isn’t the norm in North America. HOWEVER, it is the norm in a LOT of other countries all over the world. If I didn’t loan out my “Happiest Baby on the Block” book to a new mom, I would be able to quote Harvey Karp talking about ancient methods of keeping babies happy and how in some cultures it’s the norm for babies to be held 24 hours a day by women in the community for something like the first two months of their life. I can only dream of something as beautiful as that happening now. I wonder what happened to us that we lost that basic instinct.

Also, to quote a friend that emailed me with a very, very good point: “I thought that one could make the case that attachment parenting is the “biologically correct” way to do it… Pretty much every traditional or indigenous culture does attachment parenting and is deeply opposed to the “cry it out” theory. I was reading today as well that in hunter-gatherer societies that only 2-5 hours a day were spent on “work” (food and shelter), so I think that if we look back in history, parents spent SERIOUS time with kids, and the harsher the environment, the closer the parent-child bond is… So I think one could argue that attachment parenting produces a biologically more successful kid.”

Most moms in North America believe that a crying child is just a crying child, especially at night time. I do not. You may believe that letting a child cry with both help their lung development (!! it doesn’t!!), but mostly that it will teach them to “self sooth” and they will be a more independent child because of it.

I, on the other hand, differ from that belief. I believe that a crying child isn’t trying to inconvenience you, IS trying to communicate wants/needs (and depending on the age, the wants ARE the NEEDS- there is no difference with an infant), and that by letting them cry, you’re not only making them release cortisol, a stress hormone and hard wiring their brain, but breaking down their basic trust foundation.

I believe that by giving a child a firm trust foundation- one which says that mom/dad will always be there when you need me, no matter if it’s day or night- you’re going to give them a high sense of self-esteem and therefore the child will be independent all on his or her own.

I think me calling CIO “child abuse” is what got a lot of people up in arms about it- both times I wrote an entry about it. I understand it’s hard to hear. I think there’s a fine line though. Do you consider spanking “child abuse”? Some of you do- it’s hitting after all. Some of you think, “it’s just a swat on the bottom, it doesn’t matter.” It’s all up to interpretation- it’s how you’re raised, it’s the books you’ve read it’s the people you surround yourself with.

I believe that if you have to put earplugs in your ears or check into a hotel in order to help silence your basic maternal instinct of PLEASE STOP DOING WHAT YOU’RE DOING, there’s something wrong. There’s a parenting fad in North America that’s extremely hands-off parenting. Push your babies around in strollers. Get them a bottle, not a boob. Don’t nurse too long or you’ll still be nursing at age 8 (as I’ve been accused of- um, hello! My baby is not even 14 months old, and yes, still nursing, but it does not mean he’ll be nursing when he’s 8, you fucking idiot- also, he’s allergic to cow’s and goat’s milk and it’s the WHO and the AAP and the Canadian Paediatric’s recommendation to nurse until AGE TWO- and that’s exactly what I’ll be doing). Don’t go to them when they’re crying. Get them on a schedule. You can still go out and have your old life- having a baby doesn’t mean anything has to change. I honestly pity the moms that have to go back to work three months after their unpaid maternity leave ends. Canada’s got it right, folks.

In the end, it doesn’t matter what I think about your parenting, and it definitely doesn’t matter what you think of mine. You’re going to do what you’re going to do because you feel it’s the right way to raise a child. I’m going to keep doing what I’m doing because I think it’s the best way to raise a child. There’s nothing that you can do to change my mind to not let my baby cry, and I never expected to change your mind about letting your babies cry.

There’s one thing I’m sure of- is that there’s a lot of fundamental things wrong in the United States. Here’s a theory, completely out of left field: the growing obesity epidemic, for one. And as Oprah says (along the lines of): “I’m not fat because I like cookies, I’m fat because I’m trying to cover up something.” There is just so much brain development in the first couple of years of life, you must realize how much it will effect the adult you grow into. You may not remember for crying for an hour at a time while going ignored, but it definitely has a PHYSICAL effect on you and your brain. I’m sure there are lots of obese people who weren’t left to cry, but there’s something seriously wrong with your (our) culture here, people. Also, the violence rates in the USA? Absurd! I know there are thousands of things that can go wrong in a person’s life that can lead them down wrong paths, but I think a lot of it is how you’re raised.

***

One more thing: I’m a no-name blogger. Had I known that Linda was going to link my post and lead people to believe that I had said that she didn’t love her children (the quote after the link was NOT FROM ME) and immediately get Team Linda that defensive, I would have chosen my words differently or I wouldn’t have written at all. If some other no-name blogger had written something like that about me I don’t think I would have cared. I didn’t think she’d care- she knew how I felt from the few comments I left on her blog and the discussion we got into it on my first post about the topic. She was hurt by other people saying unflattering things, and from my comment about how I wondered why some people have kids. Even though you’ll probably call BULLSHIT on me, this is the truth: I do wonder why people who feel so shitty about being a parent are parents, but I didn’t specifically mean her. You can tell from her entries that she is being sarcastic and the dark things she says about her kids are supposed to be (and most of the time are) humorous. However, everyone knows a deadbeat dad, or a really shitty mom who can’t stop complaining and I really wish those people weren’t parents because it feels so shitty to be a kid when you feel that you’re nothing more than a burden. I never want my child to feel like that, so no, I won’t let him cry himself to sleep and there’s nothing wrong with that. He’s extremely independent and happy. I’m not a helicopter mom- not by a long shot- I’m protective about the things I need to be- toxic chemicals in plastic and foods, for example, but I’m NOT going to hover over my child and make sure that he doesn’t get a boo-boo until he’s in school and I can’t protect him. No way.

To sum up: It’s all in how you look at it. You think crying it out is going to let your child become independent, I say it puts cracks into their foundation and makes them even more clingy because they don’t know if they can trust you to be there. I think that if you let a baby cry in another room during the day while you tried your hardest to ignore them in another room people would be wondering about your parenting skills, even if you tried to justify it with trying to teach them a lesson. They don’t know what’s going on- they don’t know you’re trying to teach them something- they only know that you’re not there. I call that neglect. You don’t. Fine. If I had to do it all again, I wouldn’t have said a damn thing, but I didn’t expect 4000 members of Team Linda to read what I wrote. I put it out there, yes, but no one reads this stupid blog, so I’m usually basically able to say anything I want to- I write for ME, not for my handful of readers.

***

As I said earlier, we’re going away for about ten days and if this kind of bullying (dare I say, “abuse”? ha!) continues, I will lock my blog while I’m away so everyone can breathe deeply and forget this ever happened. After my cute Hallowe’en pictures have been posted, of course.

65 Responses to "A Difference of Opinion"

1 | typealice

October 29th, 2008 at 7:28 am

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No name calling allowed. Any name calling comments will be deleted. Comments are now being moderated.

2 | MommaMia

October 29th, 2008 at 7:54 am

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I Heart you. You are awesome. I’m an AP’er too, my guy is now 7….and trust me, it’s the greatest foundation you can give a lil one.
You’re a wonderful mom!
P.S. The upside to her linking your blog is that she has turned me on to an awesome person!

3 | Jules

October 29th, 2008 at 8:07 am

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I appreciate your honesty and approach. You have challenged some conventional norms that I (and I believe many people hold). Perhaps a paradigm shift in child rearing will have a very large positive influence on younger generations. Particularily when Zellers is marketing padded underwire bras to 6 year olds (I digress that is a separate rant).

Although I do not agree with everything that has been said in the blog (e.g. religion- which can be a hot topic). I think these differences can be handled in a mature way and hope in future people will respond in such a way.

Best of luck and enjoy your trip!

4 | Ruth

October 29th, 2008 at 8:14 am

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I’m a lurker and rarely comment. I’m delurking to make an annual comment on your site as a non-parent, non-god, just bipartisan reader.

I think you should let it go. People keep commenting because you keep writing journal entries. The other blogger has already dropped it and gone on with her life.

Also, my concern is not how you define abuse but how the law does. If you think the other blogger is indeed abusing her child you should report her to the authorities. Somehow I don’t think CPS will define abuse the same way you do. Therefore, it shouldn’t concern you. Unless you want to take steps to change that law.

People are bringing up your out of wedlock baby as an example. Just like you calling someone a child-abuser they could in turn call your lifestyle questionable. I’m sure the people that mentioned it really don’t spend much time worrying about the well-being of your baby because of it, it’s an example.

Finally, I’m always looking for new blogs to read so I was excited to look through yours. However, I noticed in all your pictures you look really unhappy. I haven’t seen a smiling picture yet. It makes me think despite what you write about your life a picture is worth 1000 words. The man in them (your partner?) is often smiling. He seems nice.

I think I will still keep reading you for now. Even though you do have opinions I don’t agree with. I do always love a good drama.

5 | Amanda

October 29th, 2008 at 8:38 am

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Oh come on G. I want to hear about how you are going to sloot it up with your man in two days, not about the drama drama bullshit. SLOOOOOOT i wanna hear it… uh not literally.

6 | typealice

October 29th, 2008 at 9:43 am

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Ruth: Of course she’s dropped it- she wasn’t attacked like I was. I was misunderstood, I was misquoted, I was caught off guard. I have a lot of things to say about parenting- and this argument would have come up sooner or later anyway. When making a claim about “child abuse” there need to be a good explanation. I can just throw it out there and not explain why I feel the way I do.

Are you serious about my pictures looking unhappy? First of all, I hardly ever upload pictures of myself anymore. Second, the most recent ones- like me meeting my sister, I have a huge smile on my face. The ones of me with Ash near a lake I’m smiling. The ones of me taken on his birthday with our family- I’m smiling. I feel like a dolt taking smiley pictures of myself- and as has been mentioned- Clive’s only home for an hour or two every day while I’m awake and that’s at 9:30 at night and I’m busy working.

I’ve never, ever, been happier in my entire life. I’m surprised you’d doubt that. Clive- my HUSBAND- is very happy and yes, very nice.

7 | Jess

October 29th, 2008 at 9:47 am

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I love you…in a non-creepy way. Promise.

I wish there were more parents like you. More parents like you need to be heard. Things need to change. One step at a time…

8 | Bloomsbury21

October 29th, 2008 at 9:56 am

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Linda’s minions respond to any negative comment with juvenile and personal attacks on the commenter. If you choose to blog publicly–as Linda has–then you leave yourself open for both praise *and* criticism. My sympathies are with you for what you’ve had to endure for stating *your* opinion on *your* blog.

I’m in the camp who stopped reading Linda’s blog, but for a different reason–I can’t abide drunk drivers.

9 | Junni

October 29th, 2008 at 9:57 am

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I agree that namecalling is not necessary, and many commenters appear to have gone crazy over this issue.

I think the big problem at hand is that you would specifically call her out on your blog like that. Disagreeing with someone is fine–healthy in fact! But don’t discuss someone like that publicly, linking to her blog, and assume people are not going to respond negatively.

I think you cast the first stone on that one.

Keep up the good blogging.

10 | Jill B.

October 29th, 2008 at 10:10 am

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You know I’ve read your blogs on IAM for years and I now I read you here. Just wanted to say I think you are a great parent. We all just need to remember that everyone has their own way of parenting. I envy you that you have skills to be a work from home mom. I work a 9 to 5 job and returned working when Ivy was 8 weeks old. I hate having to work, but we have a mortgage and other loans to pay off. I spend as much time as possible with Ivy when I am not working.

Anyramblings, I just wanted to say I was happy to read you were god-free. I guess I never knew that about you. I made that decision within the last year or two and have never felt better. I know my happiness is in my own hands.

11 | Anne

October 29th, 2008 at 10:13 am

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I wanted to follow up from my previous comment about needs vs. desires in babies. I don’t think I was clear about what I was trying to say: I absolutely agree with you that, with young infants, there are only “needs” and not desires. This is because, as you know, young infants’ cries are not due to the fact that they are angry, but are due to the fact that they are hungry, wet, cold, sick, or otherwise uncomfortable. I believe very strongly in (and practiced with my own daughter) immediate response to crying. However. Once you hit the 9 or 10 month old range, babies have many more “cries” in their repetoire–any parent can recognize when their, say, 10 month old is angry or bored as opposed to frightened, uncomfortable, or in pain. My belief (and I am a child psychologist and have read literally hundreds of books and articles on the subject of attachment theory, so although I am not saying I’m “right,” I AM very informed) is that if a caregiver does NOT begin responding differently to their child’s different cries starting in late infancy, you can actually be contributing to an insecure type of attachment in children, commonly called “ambivalent attachment.” The core of Bowlby’s attachment theory (and Ainsworth’s follow-up laboratory research) suggests that it’s not just immediate response to the baby’s signals that is important, rather it is also ACCURATE responses to what the baby needs at that point that create a secure attachment.

For example, if a parent responds to their baby’s cries of “I’m TIRED” with more bouncing, rocking, or other stimulation, the baby starts to get the sense that their communication is not getting through clearly, which can lead them to form the belief (the “internal working model” of themselves) that what they feel/think/need doesn’t matter to the parent.

BTW–I am NOT trying to say that you are doing this, but I wanted to point out that our current idea of “attachment parenting” only skims the top of Bowlby’s and Ainsworth’s work, and their work is really worth reading in the original. Bretherton is another author you might want to check out, if you haven’t already. And, for a bit of “lighter” reading, check out Our Babies, Ourselves, (again, if you haven’t already read it).

12 | MG

October 29th, 2008 at 10:34 am

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“I believe that by giving a child a firm trust foundation- one which says that mom/dad will always be there when you need me, no matter if it’s day or night- you’re going to give them a high sense of self-esteem and therefore the child will be independent all on his or her own. ”

1. mom and dad won’t always be there

2. could not disagree with you more.

I will feel bad for your sons future girlfriend/wife. You will be that mother in law who can’t let go. Who feels betrayed because he shows more attention to another female. That sucks. Good luck.

13 | typealice

October 29th, 2008 at 10:37 am

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Unless I am dead, I will be there for him. That is what a parent is. This is not to say I won’t go anywhere without him- even this afternoon I left him with a friend so I could go to a meeting- but he knows I’m there for him when he needs me.

My child is 14 months old. How I care for him right now IS NOT THE SAME as how I’ll care for him in 15 years. I have a MIL who has those kinds of issues and I will NEVER be that woman.

14 | Krissa

October 29th, 2008 at 11:24 am

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Anne – great comment/sources! Thank you for the further reading tips.

Typealice: I had never heard of you until the kerfluffle with Sundry. I am very impressed by your relationship with your husband and child, and now I have a new daily blog – a list which includes Public Enemy #1 – I mean, Sundry. :) Thank you for sharing your life, even though slings and arrows are out here sometimes.

15 | Marjorie

October 29th, 2008 at 11:24 am

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Jess: I love you…in a non-creepy way. Promise.

lol that was awsome, reading that made my day :p

16 | Jen

October 29th, 2008 at 11:52 am

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I’ve avoiding weighing in on this topic while the shitstorm was raining down and have given a bit of thought to what’s gone on so now feel like I have a properly formed opinion to comment with. As you know, there are many aspects of parenting that you and I disagree on. I think the difference is that because you and I are friends, when we talk about these things, we care for each other’s feelings and are careful to not dismiss each other’s opinions. When you post something rather black and white-ly in a blog (for example, stating that CIO is child abuse) what you are doing is dismissing everyone who doesn’t believe the same thing. Because a blog is essentially a one sided conversation, and people feel they didn’t get a chance to defend their opinions to you. Like if only you had listened to them, you might not feel that way. Its absurd, but we all crave a homogenized view of the world. Posting things in a blog can be dangerous. Trust me, I know, I lost my best friend of ten years because I insulted his fiancee in mine and what I said was, IMO, hardly that bad.

You once told me that you were trying to tell people the benefits of AP in a positive way – IE “my child is so awesome because we do this” rather than in a negative way – IE “other parents suck because they do this” and no matter which way you slice it, the term “child abuse” cannot be construed as positive. If I have learned anything from having Kale, I have learned that there is nothing like becoming a parent to challenge myself – I have discovered some pretty close-minded things I believe in as a result of having a kid.

Anyway, I’m rambling. Even though I disagree vehemently with your use of the word “abuse” and I still intend on reading Linda’s blog because I like her sense of humour, I totally agree with your right to believe what you do, and I applaud you for putting your money where your mouth is and support you while you weather the complete BS personal attacks that you have endured. No one deserves that, period. I know how much you love love love Ash and I also know how much effort you put into trying to be the best Mama you can be.

17 | Alissa

October 29th, 2008 at 12:28 pm

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De-lurking to comment, though not sure it’s wise. I read your original post and, as a non-parent who has done no research on the AP vs. CIO debate, I was initially put off. Not by your opinion, because you believe what you believe and have a right to that, but by the fact that so many parents seem to be judgmental of other parent’s choices.

Please understand that I’m not name-calling here, but I’m trying to delicately point out that there’s a difference between strongly believing in something (we’ll call it “X”) and writing a public post about how, because someone else doesn’t believe in “X,” you are no longer going to associate with them. I don’t think it’s good practice to sever your ties with those who disagree with you, merely because they disagree with you. I firmly believe that we can learn more from people who are dissimilar to us than from those who are just like us. Who knows? Maybe those moms would learn something from you in return and change their beliefs/actions (however slightly) as a result.

Case in point: I never thought I’d want to breastfeed. After reading different blogs and having several girlfriends who have breastfed, I’m determined to do it for at least a year.

I’ve been married six years and we’re just starting the conception process. I am extremely turned off by what I perceive to be “competitive” parenting and “one upsmanship” among so many parents. Whether it’s organic food (which I try to eat), no dairy, making baby food at home, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, staying at home, working, etc…, I find that the arguments among parents about what’s “right” are never-ending. It’s intimidating to a prospective parent. What happened to just loving your child and being kind? Is that not enough anymore?

I don’t know if this comment has any point, but I just think parents should stop being so hard on each other. If you’re reading parenting-related blogs, it’s a pretty good bet that you’re just trying to do the best you can. Opinions can differ, but support for one another should never waiver.

I hope you have a nice honeymoon.

18 | Alissa

October 29th, 2008 at 12:29 pm

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Sorry about that previous post. The spacing I’d inserted is all messed up.

19 | Ashley

October 29th, 2008 at 12:36 pm

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Testing, testing… I think your blog doesn’t like me posting…

20 | Lisa

October 29th, 2008 at 12:47 pm

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If you choose to blog publicly–as Linda has–then you leave yourself open for both praise *and* criticism.

*

And the same can go for G here. She didn’t have to publicly detail why she doesn’t read specific blogs anymore.

The strength of her conviction regarding CIO is notable. However, it is disingenuous to post a “Why I won’t read this blog” entry — which, really, is sort of unnecessary because you can make the same points about your feelings on CIO without pointing fingers at other people, and then cry “I was misunderstood, I was misquoted, I was caught off guard” at the reaction.

It is disingenuous because the minute you make your words public, you lose total control; your words are subject to interpretation by a wide audience. As public blogger, you can do one of two things: write better, so as to reduce the potential for misinterpretation, and accept responsibility for your actions.

*
G, I’m sorry you feel bruised by the past few days. This should prove instructive for your future interactions with other public bloggers, no?

21 | Ruth

October 29th, 2008 at 12:50 pm

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Alissa, Bravo! I really liked your comment. Well said.

It would appear (again as a new reader to both blogs) that the other blogger was indeed very much attacked and probably taken off guard. I read through the comments and it seems pretty clear that her lifestyle choices were under fire.

TypeAlice, I’m sorry if I offended you. I was merely stating an observation about your photos and didn’t realize you don’t smile much in pictures because you “feel like a dolt.” Thanks for posting my comment even though we have different opinions.

22 | typealice

October 29th, 2008 at 12:54 pm

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The lesson I’ve learned is to not link them. I will still have my opinions, and may even feel like posting about them, but no more links.

Maybe I will stop talking about other people and focus on how great my son is and how wonderful my life is.

But haters will be haters, and they’ll find something wrong with whatever I say. It’s often a lose/lose situation when dealing with people like that.

23 | Sundry

October 29th, 2008 at 1:19 pm

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Typealice: we’ve already talked over email about all this, but I just wanted to say one more thing, and this goes for anyone who keeps a public blog: whatever you write, you should be prepared for the person you’re writing about to read it. No matter what your readership is, no matter if you link or not, no matter what lengths you go to in order to be anonymous. You should be okay with the person reading it and be prepared to stand behind the fact that you posted it, because anyone can find ANYTHING on the internet, even if they’re not specifically looking.

I have an example: years ago I wrote some not-very-nice things about my father’s wife. These were things I meant, but never would have said to his or her face. And my father found my blog on accident, by googling a margarita recipe of all things, and there was indeed a shitstorm. We haven’t been in contact since. He’s never even met his grandchildren, thanks to that incident.

I don’t always follow my own advice, but I do try and keep it in mind.

Also, for a no-name blogger you sure sent a lot of traffic my way. I suspect you have more readers than you think. : )

24 | Amanda

October 29th, 2008 at 1:46 pm

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… Uh some of that traffic might have been me…. 4 computers is alot for one girl i know…

25 | NK

October 29th, 2008 at 2:06 pm

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My church has a youth group of over 1500 kids. I wouldn’t go there if I were you. I do, however, disagree with the out-of-wedlock jabs. Just as judgmental as the original post, though so was your comeback…

But that’s not the point. The point is that I think that a lot of people can learn from this. And ditto what Sundry said. Maybe next time attack the issue instead of the reader. It’s fine to be anti-CIO – I am too. But I still love Sundry and I know she loves her kiddos. Letting it go would be wisest at this point. =]

26 | typealice

October 29th, 2008 at 2:33 pm

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My “comeback” wasn’t a comeback- I just think that Christianity is pretty much for older folks and for states like Utah. I believe Christianity is much MUCH different in the States than in Canada.

I will “let it go” but not because people are telling me to. I don’t have much left to say about the issue right now. I will continue to talk about parenting, I will probably mention that I’m against CIO again in the future, but as for this “Team Linda” vs “typealice” thing, I’m so over it.

27 | NK

October 29th, 2008 at 2:40 pm

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You live in Canada? Or in the States? I’m confused. All I know is that I live in Louisiana, and religion here is not obsolete. Religion was a bigger help after Hurricanes Katrina, Rita, and Gustav than anything, because the bigger churches spent weeks afterward assisting in the cleanup and turning the church buildings into shelters. My church even sent a large crew into Texas after Ike. But whatever. This wasn’t meant to be a religious debate. (And I’m fifteen, by the way. So you can’t accuse me of being an ‘older folk’.)

As for the Team Linda V. typealice, I think the same should be for everyone. Finished and done with.

28 | typealice

October 29th, 2008 at 2:43 pm

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Despite what a lot of people ignored (there’s two mentions of it on my site- one on the side bar and the other on the About page)- I am Canadian.

I have no issues with people who are religious- whether it’s Christian or Muslim or Buddhist. I really couldn’t care less what people believe in. It’s a non-issue to me.

I just think that 99% of people wouldn’t be religious if they weren’t parented with religion.

29 | NK

October 29th, 2008 at 2:49 pm

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Fine. That’;s perfectly fine. It’s your life after all, and I have no place to tell you what to do with it. And I won’t keep trying to argue either because i think we are at that point when no one can really win. ; )

So, best wishes. And just so you know, I think your son is adorable – if you don’t mind me saying so. =]

30 | Nicole

October 29th, 2008 at 5:14 pm

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Boy oh boy. When I heard about this whole ordeal I first thought “Sunwin?? From their wedding??” but now I get it…

*yawn*

31 | Bloomsbury21

October 29th, 2008 at 5:56 pm

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*As public blogger, you can…write better, so as to reduce the potential for misinterpretation…*

Lisa, even the best writers in the public blogger arena have the potential to be misinterpreted. Is this some kind of backhanded swipe at typealice’s writing? Or has your comment been misinterpreted?

32 | typealice

October 29th, 2008 at 6:00 pm

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Nicole: Her name was Sundew. :) I had no idea what you were talking about until I figured out you just had the name wrong. :)

33 | becky

October 29th, 2008 at 7:18 pm

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i just wanted to say some of those comments were waaay out of line. i was just shocked by the unconnected attacks on you and your family. i hope they won’t change anything you do.

ps i apologize for the anonymous masses

34 | mojavi at Simple Things

October 29th, 2008 at 7:42 pm

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wow this sure has been a shit storm to say the least.

I have to say I am a hard core believer in NO CIO, co-sleeping or room sharing which ever, and breastfeeding. I have also had some shitstorms on my blog when posting how I feel. Even when I don’t have a person to talk about, if you just mention how you hate people who CIO, if they read your blog they leave nast messages. I think it is because on some level they feel guilty for letting their baby CIO, and as long as some book, or some person justifies what they are doing they can continue.

Just like women who don’t try to breastfeed get mad when you say formula is HORRIBLE. Now I say try because there are woman who can’t and that is just extrememly sad for mommy and baby.

Typealice the only mistake I think you made was naming the blogger you were quiting. Next time mums the word on who it is, but totally post your opinion!

Also I have to give cudos for sundry for her nice comment in this comments section. No one likes to be talked about.

35 | Asheo

October 30th, 2008 at 7:02 am

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On the religion thing… I feel bad for kids who are brought up to believe certain things instead of thinking for themselves.
My older sister has her kids completely brainwashed.
Belive in God, fine, but in this day and age, I don’t think it’s right to teach a kid that being gay is “wrong and disgusting”… her oldest son started high school in the fall, and at that school, it’s safe to say that there are as many gay people as there are straight… so I find it really sad that he’ll be at school, looking down on the his gay peers, judging them wrongly, all because of my sister.
She also has them beliving that sex before marriage is wrong… although she had sex before marriage… and again, with the way the world is now, it’s pretty unlikely that anyone will make it to marriage without doing it at least once before hand. Instead, she should be teaching them to be responsible about it.
My sister does a lot of things I don’t agree with lol… and my comment doesn’t even concern your entry anymore at all haha… sorry.
I agree though, baby before marriage… big deal, you’re taking care of your son, he’s not going to be scarred by being born before his parents were married.
I was 33 weeks pregnant when I got married, and sadly, the only person we were able to find to marry us, was a Paster at a nearby church… he said a prayer for our unborn baby since he was created out of wedlock… I really hated that, but he had to do everything HIS way, or he wouldn’t do the wedding.

36 | thebrick

October 30th, 2008 at 8:16 am

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typealice: I hope your plan doesn’t backfire on you as mine did me.

I felt as strongly as you do about AP, CIO, breastfeeding, etc etc etc. I practiced these things with my daughter, we breastfed, coslept, NEVER C’edIO, and all that jazz. As a result, I now have an almost 7 year old daughter who cannot fall asleep on her own and is the neediest little person I have ever come across. I have to lay down with her every night, and Q U I E T L Y sneak out of her bed and room after she’s asleep, cross my fingers that she doesn’t hear me leave, and HOPE TO HELL she sleeps through the night. If she wakes, to use the restroom even, we repeat the whole process again in the middle of the night.

I also have a 9 month old son. And I “abuse” that baby by teaching him to fall asleep on his own, even if that means he cries himself to sleep at times. I pat him and leave, return in ten minutes and pat him/reassure him and leave again. Most times we don’t have to go through this, but when we do he only cries for 5-15 mins before falling asleep.

I am still an avid supporter of BFing and will continue that on demand until he weans himself or turns 2-ish. But we do NOT cosleep, I do NOT wear him, carry him everywhere, or any of the other AP traditional practices.

I love both of my kids equally and fully understand that it is MY fault, not her’s, that my daughter is so fucking clingy, needy, dependant and time consuming and my son is so easy going, laid back and more manageable. I feel guilty for essentially holding back her independance and ability to feel like she can take care of herself in certain areas.

Hopefully she will outgrow the damage that AP caused her. And hopefully you will luck out and be spared this.

Good luck!!

37 | typealice

October 30th, 2008 at 9:27 am

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thebrick: It’s interesting to hear a different side of the story with AP. You’re the first one I’ve ever spoken to that has those kinds of issues- it might be your daughter herself that’s that clingy- not necessarily how you raised her. They’re going to have their own personalities, regardless of whether or not you carried them in a sling.

Ash sleeps just fine for naps without me there- I never “sneak” out of the room. He sleeps really well for the first 4-5 hours of the night alone in bed. So far, so good! :)

38 | Victoria

October 30th, 2008 at 10:10 am

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Have a fabulous honeymoon!

39 | Amie

October 30th, 2008 at 10:31 am

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I think that’s kind of the point, though. All children are different, with their own personalities. One method will work for one, while proving a nightmare situation for another. I’ve seen a lot of parents have issues like The Brick spoke of with their children in regards to effects from AP parenting, and I’ve seen an equal number have fantastic results. Then there are those that have had the best results by using a blend of different methods.

It’s hard not to be judgmental, I think it tends to come naturally to us as humans. You find something that works wonderfully for you, then you find a community of people who all have that same experience. You surround yourself with those that agree with you and pretty soon it starts to look like, “Hey! I really have found the one true answer!” But, you haven’t. You’ve just found a group of people who have had the same experience you’ve had in terms of the parenting choices they’ve made. Anyone who tries a different method starts to look wrong, some methods seeming more extreme in their wrongness.

I mean, hey, I was incredibly lucky with my first two children. My daughter started sleeping through the night for 6 hour stretches at 6 weeks, without any encouragment from me. And my son started doing 4-6 hour stretches at about 5 weeks. By the time they were both at around the 1 1/2 – 2 year old range, they were sleeping anywhere from 8-10 hours a night, without waking and crying (bad dreams aside). I suppose I could take that experience and make the assumption that anyone who doesn’t have that experience is doing something wrong, but why would I? It doesn’t make sense.

I co-slept with my daughter (though more out of convenience than a conscious decision that it was what was “best” for her), and did not with my son. My son did not like being in the bed with us, and made it very clear. Even from a very, very young age he has had an incredibly independent streak. He is still an extremely affectionate child, and very loving, but he needs his space. My daughter, on the other hand, has always been one to crave our attention, and she wants to be involved in group activities.

I think the point I’m trying to make, in a very rambling sort of way, is that though it’s sometimes difficult, you have to sometimes look outside of your own perspective. I sincerely doubt you meant to come across as being as judgmental a person as you have (but, I don’t know you, so maybe you did), but yet, you have. I think it’s fantastic that you have found a parenting method that has worked so well for you and your son, and I hope that, should you have more children in the future, you find the same ease in finding what works. But, try to remember, what worked for you and your son is not necessarily the answer for someone else and their child. Nor is it guaranteed to work with any future children you may have.

40 | NK

October 30th, 2008 at 11:08 am

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I agree that it all really depends on the personality of the child you’re dealing with. That’s why it isn’t, in my opinion, right to judge others for using what works. No two children are alike, and so long as you aren’t taking anything to extremes, I think CIO can be the right answer. And then there are children who would be best off with different techniques. It depends on the child.

Asheo: I was raised by Christian parents, but ultimately taught to make my choice of faith (or lack of faith) based on my own experiences in life. I am proud to call myself a Christian now. Is that OK, or am I also to be considered one of those brainwashed freaks?

42 | Jan

October 30th, 2008 at 1:20 pm

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Just wanted to say hope you have a great honeymoon! :)

43 | Maggie

October 30th, 2008 at 1:52 pm

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Good for you! I hate it that you were attacked the way you were for stating your opinion.

AP’ing is the way to go! I have two boys (2 years and 2 months) and they have never been left to cry for more than a few minutes. The older one is so calm and easy going…I attribute it partly to his natural personality but partly to the way he has always been taken care of. The younger one seems to be following in the same pattern. I believe, like you do, that trust is key to having a happy child. How anyone could think differently is beyond me!

One more thing – I’m a Christian, although I’ve not attended church in a while. I don’t think it makes any difference if you are married or not as long as you love and take care of the child. It seems like some people put undue importance on a piece of paper.

You’re doing a great job and Ash seems like a wonderful little guy. Can’t wait to see those Halloween pictures!!!

44 | Clive

October 30th, 2008 at 4:59 pm

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God-free except for the Church hockey team I play on…

45 | Katie

October 30th, 2008 at 6:05 pm

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I’m a lurker and I find your views on parenting interesting and mostly refreshing, which is why I continue to read your blog. You do have very strong views that you are passionate about and I think that’s great. Nothing you are doing has the capacity to harm your child, and I think people need to learn to shut their mouths and not criticize you for your parenting. Yes, even I disagree with some things you say and do as far as parenting is concerned but they’re YOUR views.

But what brought me to actually comment on your blog was your random, completely uncalled for attack on the United States. Please do not attack the United States out of your frustration of people attacking you on their views about something completely unrelated. Anyone with a somewhat intellectual mind in the United States can see that we are a really messed up nation. I’m not going to get into specifics because it is an infinite list. But one, especially those residing outside the United States, has to stop for a second (especially upon criticizing) and put themselves in our shoes. I would have to say from the standpoint of a college student that it is not entirely our fault for how messed up we are. Imagine a country that doesn’t care about us being healthy, just wants to sell us more pharmaceuticals. Imagine living in a country where we don’t have common health care. A country where you can’t believe a single word the media says. A country that cares solely about power over the world. Imagine being terrified for your country’s future, and having no faith in the fact that your government is looking out for your well-being.

Yes, I have every intention on moving to Canada to raise my family when the time comes. But for now I am essentially stuck here as a college student. To randomly attack my country during a parenting discussion I think is uncalled for and I believe you should have respect for others while you are asking them for the same.

46 | Asheo

October 30th, 2008 at 7:49 pm

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NK – I never said christians were brainwashed freaks, not at all.
You’d have to know my sister and the way she is… she’s a little but crazy and always on the verge of a mental breakdown.
It’s really sad that she’s teaching her kids to be so closed minded. That’s really all I was saying.

47 | typealice

October 31st, 2008 at 2:28 am

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Katie: I didn’t mean for those comments to come off as insults towards your country. You must understand that in North America and Western Europe, parenting is much, much different than most of the rest of the world. Also, anyone with access to any kind of unbiased news understands just how messed up the US is right now. The US and Canada is similar in a lot of ways- Canada also has a lot of obese people, for example, but our violence rates are much lower per capita, our health care system is far superior in a lot of different ways.

The US policy of three months of unpaid mat leave literally boggles my mind. No wonder so many babies are formula fed- do you know how impossibly difficult it would be to have to go back to work and pump enough milk for the next day so that your baby can be exclusively fed breastmilk while in someone else’s care? It’s as if the formula companies made that policy themselves, not the government. Not to mention all of the important bonding time missed out for the baby and the parents if both of them have to go back if they’re unable to stay home with the child.

I’m sorry if you felt attacked, but I was merely stating facts about a nation that practices different parenting techniques than most of the rest of the world and how that might possibly affect you as adults. It was out of left field, as I mentioned initally.

48 | Allahkat

October 31st, 2008 at 4:04 am

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In regards to the maternity leave thing…
I don’t have children, and I’m not planning on it. I am also a Canadian living in the United States. When I heard about the length (or lack thereof) for maternity leave over here, it blew my mind. And not only that, but when I was discussing what maternity leave is like in Canada, the response was, “UGH, a year? What would you DO with all that spare time? You guys sure are crazy over there!” Spare time? WTF? I don’t know, I thought you may want to spend a year raising the child your just had.
I realise there are some people who would LOVE to spend the first twelve months with their baby, but there are also a lot of people who are too into the rat race.

49 | typealice

October 31st, 2008 at 5:12 am

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Maternity leave is completely optional- if you want to go back to the rat race, you can. No one’s forcing you to stay at home. :)

It’s nice to have the option. And you know, some people can’t afford to take that year off- you only get paid 50% of your income so a lot of people can’t even afford to live off of that.

50 | sarah p

October 31st, 2008 at 9:01 am

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Just wanted to tell you that your blog is a constant inspiration to me.

I found your blog a few months ago, and reading about your life and your opinions (and even your struggles) helps remind me that I am doing what I believe is right with my son. That means we all sleep in two-hour stretches because he nurses at night, that means my son regards me as his sole source for emotional balance (which can get VERY frustrating), but despite all of the frustration, he’s amazingly independent and confident for his age. And I credit that to the fact that he knows I’m here for him. And having a happy inquisitive son and being able to share his joy and appreciate his learning means more to me than training him to fit my expectations about his life.

You recently wrote a post about how you can’t stop thinking about your son – about being frustrated that your husband has a job and friends but when you go out you’re still in “LOOK! A BIKE!” mommy mode. That entire entry? Is exactly how I’m experiencing motherhood, and knowing that you’re going through that sometimes too helps me feel not so crazy.

My partner and I watched a show last night where a mother is planning to give up her baby for adoption, but after seeing the adoptive mother’s happiness decides to keep the child. She says something to the effect of, “All my life has been about pain and disappointment, but now it can be about love, and I can’t let that go.”

We talked about her decision, and I mentioned that blog post, where you wrote that being upbeat for your child means “…I actually start believing that looking a bikes is SO COOL! So I end up being happy most of the time.” And how forcing yourself to be calm, stable, interested, excited for your child can be a great way to change how you think, and having someone who you treat in a way solely informed by love can really change your life. Even though it’s hard, frustrating, and sometimes ugly.

And I guess I just wanted to say thank you for writing that post, thank you for keeping this blog, thank you for being someone I admire.

51 | Amanda

October 31st, 2008 at 10:10 am

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Have good sex next week!

52 | NK

October 31st, 2008 at 12:00 pm

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Asheo: I would be one of the first to admit that there are a lot of stupid Christians out there. Sorry I took your comment wrongly. And just for the record, I am not the kind of Christian that goes out of ther way to judge others because of, well, anything. I don’t think that’s really my job, and it saddens me to see how many religious groups out there think it is.

And thanks for the clarification. =]

53 | rizzo

October 31st, 2008 at 4:17 pm

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After reading your blog here and what you had written on BME I realize awhile ago that my daughter (17) is doing AP without having read any books or learning anything about it.

She breastfeeds, co sleeps, holds the baby as much as possible, and is against CIO. (She said the baby can sleep in her bed until she is 15 if she wants.) She does put the baby in daycare so she can finish high school (last school year and this year), but other than that they have spent very little time apart, and the baby is 7 months old. She is constantly talking to her and singing and playing little games with her.

She sees other moms doing things and she gets angry when she sees or hears about things other moms do that are against her natural parenting instincts.

When I told her she was “doing” AP she said “I didn’t know being a normal mom had a name”.

54 | typealice

October 31st, 2008 at 4:22 pm

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I love that story!

55 | HRJ

October 31st, 2008 at 5:43 pm

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I think what upset people is that you said Linda ignored her son while he screamed for her attention. That’s not true. He groused for 10 minutes before settling and the earplugs did not block him out entirely (she wanted to be able to still hear him but with a bit of a buffer) & she very clearly says how she can tell the difference between said grousing & actual screaming or an emergency. You also didn’t mention how it was the first time she had ever done that or how she had written extensively about ALWAYS going to her son before that. Nor did you place it within the accurate context of the deep love with which she writes about her boys which is a very healthy balance with how she writes about her very normal & very human struggles, too. The 10 mins was something shefelt she needed to do for her particular son in her particular situation & that is her absolute right. He settled to sleep right after it until 7am so he obviously needed that 10 mins just to settle (repeat, he was not screaming nor did she ignore him).

Fair enough that you oppose CIO, that is obviously your absolute right & you obviously parent your son with deep love and care. No-one should question that or attack your parenting. People mentioning you conceived your child out of wedlock is beyond ridiculous: what an absolutely stupid thing to try to attack or belittle you with. Your commitment is obvious irrespective of what some others may feel is the only tradition of worth.

The thing is, you shouldn’t have used Linda as an example of abusive CIO as she simply isn’t one. If you want to enlighten people about CIO, use an appropriate example of when it is abusive. Don’t publicly decry someone like Linda & suggest she is an abusive parent. It isn’t right or fair and it absolutely goes nowhere towards advancing your cause.

Don’t dismiss what I’m saying here as an attack on you because I don’t fully agree with you. (I very much expect this comment will be deleted because I don’t fully agree with you). Take the time to truly think whether it was fair to list Linda & her 10 mins of Dylan grousing (& how she could tell his crying was not urgent or beyond grousing) as “ignoring her sons screams”. Do you really think it was fair? Do you really think it was an example of crying it out?

I think you need to take a look at yourself (& I think you opened yourself up to people saying what I’m about to by putting it out there so much to begin with) & really, really think about whether your fervour for natural parenting has become so fired up that you are unable to tell the difference between actual CIO & someone who gave their NON-SCREAMING kid a few minutes to settle.

56 | Gillian

October 31st, 2008 at 6:20 pm

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I just wanted to make one thing clear before responding to your message: the ONLY comments I’ve deleted were ones where names were called or there were mean things said. I have not deleted any comments on the premises that a person simply disagreed with me. I value any and all opinions, as long as they’re communicated without being nasty.

I’m not sure what the difference is between a child crying for ten minutes and “crying it out” because I’ve never, ever heard Ash, or any other child, cry for that long. To me, it’s like a “light spanking.” Is it really light? Who is to judge? Does the child still feel neglected or ignored? Is the child wondering where his mommy is? Is he scared?

Crying it out doesn’t necessarily mean a child is WAILING, SCREAMING UNTIL THEY BARF sort of crying, IMO. I could be wrong. I just hear a baby’s cry as their only way of communicating- why do they have to get extremely worked up in order for my claim that CIO is neglectful?

I originally linked the post in Sundry’s entry not for the ping back, but so my readers could see exactly what I was talking about, so there was no searching through her blog to find the entry about where she had started a new method with trying to get Dylan to sleep better. She bought the Ferber book- the father of CIO- as someone told me was in her Twitter stream, and then she wrote that entry. So yeah, I call that CIO.

I do not have to follow up every single one of my entries with a “I’m sure she loves her kids” type of statement. That’s like if I were to say, “I hate bananas, but LOTS OF OTHER PEOPLE LOVE THEM.” Why even bother? That’s so not my point. I don’t care if it was her first time trying the CIO method or her hundredth. She did it- and I don’t really respect that decision. I’m sure I’d respect lots of other things she DOES do, but I’m not in her life, I don’t know her from Adam, and because she shared that small part, that one night, and because I don’t agree with the practice of CIO, I made a decision to not read her anymore. It’s really not that big of a deal.

57 | HRJ

October 31st, 2008 at 8:16 pm

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In your post you said Linda lay back and ignored her son’s screams for her attention. Again, he was not screaming. The point is, you misrepresented her by saying that.

58 | HRJ

October 31st, 2008 at 8:25 pm

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I forgot to add: I actually left a virtually identical comment to my previous lengthy one, which didn’t make your initial cut. That is why I expected the above one to be deleted.

I think you have done yourself & Linda a great disservice by not understanding how your words & judgements can impact another human being. Irrespective of this, I wish you well. That’s all :) . Goodbye & good luck :) .

59 | typealice

November 1st, 2008 at 2:33 am

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How would you possibly know that? Ten minutes is a long time to go ignored- it would make anyone frustrated to tears- and for babies- enough to make them scream. You weren’t there to hear him, most moms would never admit to letting their child scream. Regardless, that’s how I hear it in my head, and that’s what I said.

60 | Jill

November 1st, 2008 at 3:08 pm

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Also wanted to say that I hope you have a great week next week. I may not agree with all of your views, but realize that we aren’t all the same. I actually have read some of your archives and can look past how your last few posts have bothered me. You have a beautiful family!

Have fun!!

61 | Mari

November 2nd, 2008 at 7:10 pm

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@ thebrick, AMEN! I could have written your comment word for word except mine are 2 boys and both a bit older now. I seldom comment about these issues because I remember when my first son was born and I was trying so hard to do everything “right” that I would not have listened to any other way either, Now I just think to myself….they’ll learn the hard way, just like I did. But what I don’t understand is the complete and utter intolorance for any other method than their own.
Whoever said babies never cry without a reason is nuts (imo) because ya know what? sometimes they do! and it’s not the end of the world! Both of mine are a bit older now and are both equally GREAT kids!

62 | Kelly Marie

November 5th, 2008 at 11:04 pm

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I <3 You Gillian.

And I feel like a sell out, because normally I would have linked to this from MY blog…but with my new business, I fear alienating possible clientele. And this mamma can really use the money.

Again. Kelly = Sell Out.

63 | Christi

November 10th, 2008 at 8:42 am

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I’m just curious of something. My sister is trying co-sleeping with her newest baby and is loving it, but she has trouble putting her to sleep without having to go down to bed as well (usually just for the night sleep). She’s a mommy to four other kids and can’t go down to bed at the same time because she’s got piles of other stuff to finish while most of the little ones are tucked in. She really isn’t sure what to do, because she doesn’t want her little one to cry herself to sleep, but keeping her up with her or going to bed that early isn’t really an option. She has tried pretend sleeping for a bit, but she usually wakes up when my sister leaves.

Do you ever have this problem with your son?

64 | Carol

November 10th, 2008 at 8:31 pm

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Okay, I’ve seemingly got way more ap under my belt than most here, as my oldest is 11. Also lactaion counselor, AP support group leader and postpartum doula.

1)extended nursing, self weaning kids. Nursed to be 3 1/2 and 3 respectively. At the end, it was once a day.

2) Mom with baby – wear the baby in the sling while doing other things. How old are the other kids? To wean my youngest out of our bed (when he was about 3) he slept his older brother. If the baby is very little, without knowing how old the other kids are, the general rule is sleep while the baby sleeps.

Anyway, the upshot of a/p is my kids are very independent, able to speak with adults, thoughtful, empathetic human beings. I could give you loads of examples. I think coming from a place where you know that you are loved is what matters. And for babies, the tactile is how they know. Feed them. Hold them. If you let a babe “cry it out” you don’t know if the babe has a stomach ache or some other problem.

And, they are little for such a short amount of time! Relax and enjoy!

65 | Richard Larratt

November 11th, 2008 at 2:33 pm

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every generation has a marker
if there is a marker the generation now in their early 30s
is that they marry they divorce and spend a lot of time
with their children.

that’s data
the rest is opinion

it’s not exactly a luxury
but neither is it primal

when it is the lady
it is probably in part so she can
to herself explain why it is better
to bring some guy she sort of hates
to her knees and it beat having a job
clerking or flippin’ burgers

If it is the guy
it’s so he don’t have to pay the bitch
as he don’t have to if my the very act
he is the caregiver

of course it is more complex than that
but it sure as hell ain’t the 60′s
and when last were we in kansas

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About

I'm Gillian, a world-traveller turned natural parent. I believe in primal parenting; breastfeeding, baby wearing, cosleeping, cloth diapering, elimination communication, vegetarianism and all things natural. I have very strong parenting views. There's nothing better in my life than my days with my kid. Also: sushi and sweet white wine, skinny jeans and black tshirts, torrents and sugar.

My sustainable accessories company Pip Robins keeps me busy in the evenings.